64 min read

Grow your Business Podcast: Brand, Data and Strategic Insights

Grow your Business Podcast: Brand, Data and Strategic Insights

In this episode of Grow Your Business Anna Harrison and Saul Edmonds discuss the topic: Brand, Data and Strategic Insights



Full Transcript of Brand, Data and Strategic Insights Podcast with Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse on the Grow Your Business Podcast

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:00:00):
Welcome to the Grow Your Business podcast. Listen in as we discuss all things business, growth and marketing with business owners, thought leaders, and entrepreneurs. And now here's your host, founder of Roundhouse, the creative agency, Saul Edmonds.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:00:17):
Oh, hi everyone, and welcome to the Great Business Podcast. Today I'm speaking with 
 Anna Harrison. Anna, there you going. Hey,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:00:24):
So I'm great, and thanks for having me on today. Excited to explore where we take this conversation.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:00:30):
Yeah, likewise. I, I think like we've known each other for a little while now, but I guess like one of the things that I guess on this podcast that I, I personally always find really interesting initially, and it's really helpful for the the audience people listening to the podcast is just to hear your story about how what you've obviously done in the past and where you came to be, where you are now. So that's probably a good starting point for everyone listening who hasn't met you before, who hasn't heard about you, and RAMMP as well. That's RAMMP with two ems. So if you were to,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:01:17):
Hard to get a URL these days, right? Yes. So it's not that we're an extra long ramp, it's just that ramp with one M is taken. So <laugh>,

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:01:26):
It does have that effect though. It's RAMMP

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:01:28):
It does, it does. It implies a lot more upward action, doesn't it? <Laugh>,

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:01:33):
Yeah. Does. Yeah. So let everyone know, give everyone initially just an overview about, about who you are and your, I guess your am, your journey to date would be great.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:01:46):
Well, I've had a long life, so this could be a very, very long conversation. So I'm gonna give you the highlights and maybe start, we have

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:01:52):
Plenty of time

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:01:53):
And work our way forwards. Sure. well seeing as we are both sitting in Brisbane, I'll start my story there. So I finished high school and did an IT degree many, many moons ago at University of Queensland. Sort of went down that pathway and then moved overseas. So worked in London and New York City right around the time for anyone listening who's old enough to remember the last time the world was gonna end in 1999. You know, it was a good time if you were in it.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:02:24):

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:02:25):
Yeah, y2k. That's it. You know, here we're 23 years later, right? So started out in technology and very quickly moved into sort of pre-sales and systems design and those sort of roles. What happened then? Then I came back to Brisbane very briefly, and then life took me to Las Vegas of all places. So I lived in Las Vegas after each week flew to San Francisco to work for a digital advertising company. Not in the sense that you're probably thinking right now with Facebook and all that kind of stuff, but we were building a connected network of outdoor billboards and like an eBay for buying time slots on these right billboards. So very much ahead of its time, fun kind of job. And then from there, I moved into designing a system, which w later got bought out by I B M, it's called tririga, and it's a facilities management system.
And the curious thing about that, you know, I started working with architects and architectural models and CAD designs and all of that, and I just realized that I should have been an architect. This technology stuck is not for me. So, you know, enter the next decade when my kids were very little, and I actually ran a residential design practice, right? So it was like this strange pivot in my life. It was, you know, it was, it was really fun. And I really loved the process of designing homes for people. And you know, through that you learn very quickly that a home design isn't at all about designing a home. It's about designing someone's extension of themselves and how they wanna be perceived in the world. And so, in that regard, I guess you could say retrospectively, certainly not at the time, but retrospectively, I sort of become, became really, really good at the marketing of architecture, right? And so that sort of started, which

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:04:18):
Is kinda kinda rare too, for architects, mostly.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:04:22):
Yes, exactly. Like most architecture is designed to look good in a still photograph, right? Architecture still to this day, is designed to look beautiful in an architectural magazine, right? There's no function, there's no form, there's no workflow that gets considered in the home. And so it was an interesting space. I really loved doing that. But, you know, after a decade, a my kids went to school and some, I'm like, I've got more time. And b I realized being a starving artist needs to end. I've done my decade of charity work, right? <Laugh>.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:04:53):
Yeah. Yeah. I feel you. I feel you. <Laugh>. Yeah,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:04:56):
Exactly. So you know, and it's these moments. I was speaking to a friend the other day, and you know how sometimes you have moments in life where you can't ever go back to the stranger and tell them, thank you, you changed my life, right? So I was sitting at the school event next to a woman who I don't know, I still to this day don't know, but she completely affected the trajectory of what happened in my life next. Mm-Hmm. She sort of, her kids were a little bit older, and she turned to me and she said, you know, this is a great moment in life to do something to reinvent yourself in a career sense. Like, go do a PhD, go do something and just pivot. You've got nothing to lose. And I thought, that's a really good idea. So away I went, I knocked on Q UT's door, and I said, Hey, I've done 10 years of work in residential architecture, how about you kind of, you know, you, excuse me, from the first four years of an architecture degree and just allow me to do the last two.
And they said, no thanks lady. Not surprisingly enough <laugh>. I was like, but look at my portfolio. And they said, no, thanks lady. But anyway, I was persistent. And so I ended up I ended up chatting with some people and getting connected to the design team at qt, and I did, long story short, I did a PhD in experience design in airports. Right? So that was fascinating. It was like, again, it was like a moment where I got the opportunity to slightly pivot what it was that I was doing. And so that process led me to get a really solid understanding of experience design, what it is to create great experiences, and how to create great experiences that are commercially beneficial, right? So I guess you could look at it as a win-win for both sides of the equation. And through that sort of came back full circle to technology and here we are today. Right. That's a,

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:06:44):
That's, that's a really interesting trajectory to, I think, especially for me, I guess being somebody like, I, I sort of strongly relate to the, like, having, having a range of interests in different things equally too. Like I, I, I always I never really relate, although I understand like intellectually the idea, I mean, people talk about you, I mean, know, you should really focus on, on one thing, be really good at it and all that sort of stuff. But like, I think it's especially when things relate strongly too, like I can, I can see when you were talking about those things, there's, for me and really obvious correlation between, even, even though on the face of a, people might go with architecture, their user experience design and or all, all black experience design that they don't relate. But I, I see a really strong correlation between those things in, I guess because when I think about them, if you're talking about like the human level of it mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, I mean, like you were before that the, the experience that you want somebody to have and the rest is just, I mean, it's not incidental of course, but it's, it's kind of, it's not then the driving thing behind it, like you said, it's not the, like the, it might end up being an amazing looking house anyway, you know, or an amazing looking, you know sort of airport or just the process that somebody goes to. But like I can see like the link there between those things.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:08:19):
Yeah, for sure. You know, and one of the many conversations we used to have, and actually how I ended up in the design school is I, I was speaking to the dean of QT at the time, and one of his strong viewpoints was that the beginning of the foundational years for architecture and computer science are exactly the same, right? And it, it's so true. So to your point, Saul, the process of creating and designing a technology system and creating and designing an experience and creating and designing a, an architecture, you know, the lived experience and the physical rather than the virtual, the actual thought process that you would apply is really incredibly similar in all of those things. So you are right. While it looks like very random segues here and there, there was a thread that ran through all of those different career restorations if you like mm-hmm.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:09:13):
<Affirmative>. Yeah. I mean, I, I would find that too, when I'd be listening to people that I know in business who were builders. Like even some of the ways they would talk about their processes, and even though they were dealing, like in the physical world with building something, I'd be like, wow, that's really eerily familiar to how I talk about websites or how I talk about like, you know, an app design and development. It's, it sounds like really, really similar. And there's like a bunch of really similar sort of issues that that crop up. Although one's virtual and one's physical, they were eerily similar. And I I used to always sort of marvel at that too, because same thing, like on the face of it, you know, two polar opposites seemingly mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but like, there's these, these core things that if you, I guess you tap into and do them well, then, you know, you've got the, the human centered kind of outcome maybe that you want or that you should have

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:10:19):
For sure. And, you know, I think that you raise an interesting issue or question, and that is, how do you evaluate the success of a website, right? Just like, how do you evaluate the success of a home? Is it the static beautiful image that you see in an architecture magazine? Is it, you know, the beautiful landing page that you land on that has very lovely colors? Or is it the experience that it provides to the audience and then the commercial benefit that it delivers to the business owner, right? Yeah. So, and I think that's, you know, that's the space that has become my focus in the last maybe 10 years or so. And it's interesting to see those threads all roll together. So I'll, let's play a game. Are you open to that?

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:11:01):
I, I love games.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:11:03):
Okay. Excellent. Alright, I'm gonna ask you a question and you can answer this either truly or make up an answer. It really doesn't matter. But alright, ize for a moment and think back to a time when you were going on dates, right? And just try and remember the worst ever first date that you have ever been on.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:11:20):
I, it's, it's, it's quite clear. Yeah.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:11:23):
Okay. Yeah. Right. Alright. Tell, tell us about it. If you're willing to share, protect the names to keep

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:11:28):
Those Oh, sure, sure. <Laugh>. Sure. Why not? I'll, I'll expose myself. I'll be vulnerable.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:11:34):

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:11:35):
Yeah. No, I was, well, worst, kind of worst and, and best I, you know, sort of met somebody at a party and having a great time. Won't go into the gory details, Uhhuh <affirmative>, but, but then all of a sudden, you know, at, at the, you know, sort of crucial point of first, first kiss being sick, you know, oh, being, being, being literally physically sick

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:12:09):
And Okay, the

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:12:10):
Worst, like, worst possible thing that could almost happen,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:12:14):
Right. You know,

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:12:15):
At, at that point. And just like being, you know, confused like we, you know, had what to drink and then just being ashamed. And then how do I get out of this? And then confused,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:12:30):
Uhhuh <affirmative>. Okay, so let me, lemme just capture that, right? So you, worst ever a first date, everything is going well. You get to a moment where you're about to convert the first date into something a little bit more and you vomit all over her shoes, right? There is no, there is no recovery from that. Right? So

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:12:47):
To convert. Yes.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:12:48):
Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, had that happened a year after you were dating, or two years after you were dating, you know, it probably wouldn't be a relationship killer. Right? But cause it happened on the first date, it's like, there is no way this is ever progressing to anything else. Right?

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:13:05):
But it did

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:13:06):

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:13:07):
It did. Yeah.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:13:09):
No. Did you marry her?

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:13:10):
No, no, no. Oh, okay. That's my only other, yeah. No, but fortunately, fortunately, not with my, my wife, but yeah, no, it, it did. Yeah. And it was, it was actually like very forgiving. And so I was like, Ooh, close call. All

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:13:26):
Right. You, you are, you are in the, in the one of the lucky few category, right? But you know, the, the point of the game is that in, in human life, right? In real life, even though we spend a lot of our time on Zoom these days, but in real life, there are rules of engagement when it comes to relationships, right? And typically, if you had told me that was the end, like there was no turning back from that moment where you vomited on the girl's shoes on the first date, just before going in for the kiss, we would've all gone. Oh, of course. Yeah. That makes perfect sense, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, the fact that you had a bit of a run, terrific. It just shows she must have been a pretty decent and forgiving person. But you know, the point there is that we understand what the rules of creating good relationships are in real life, and yet when we jump into a digital space, we very often forget that, and we violate all those same rules, right?
So maybe another example, and I'm glad to hear this one didn't happen, but, you know, if you were to go on a first date and you show up and you've ironed your shirt and you've remembered to have a shower, terrific. You feel like you're winning the date's going well, and then you pop the question on the first date and you're like, Hey, you seem terrific. Shall we get married and have seven kids? Right? It's probably gonna be less forgiving than vomiting on her shoes. So the other person is likely to go, I don't understand what flavor of crazy this is, but it's not for me. Thanks very much. And so, <laugh> again, right? Like, we, we understand that in real life and we would, the outcome that naturally happens when it's person to person. But when we jump into digital and we create websites, right?
We forget all of these rules. So no, coming back to what we were talking about earlier, what makes for a successful website, you know, I, I'm gonna, you know, my perspective and happy to, happy for this to be challenged and, you know, challenged to everyone listening, but to me, a successful website is one that can create a really rich relationship with your audience, right? So, and a rich relationship through extension creates higher conversion rates, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So you are delivering something, which in a digital space creates a wonderful experience. And ultimately for your business to be strong and to grow and to thrive, you've gotta have a mechanism that takes strangers that arrive at your website and turn them into loyal brand advocates, buyers and fans. Mm-Hmm. So to me, that is what a successful website looks like.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:15:53):
Mm-Hmm. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's a, that's a good, you know, in, in a nutshell sort of thing. And I would, I would certainly agree with that. I would probably say at at at this point then too, for you know, for the people listening, not in our industry could be. Well, yeah, I generally understand that. And I generally understand like the word brand, and I generally understand the word digital, and I generally understand the word website, and I know what all those things are, and I definitely know about email. But like, what are, then, when those things come together, would you be able to break it down, say from your perspective on a successful website and building that sort of loyalty? This is probably a good segue to start to go a little bit into, I mean, know, to ramp too as, as, as to what RAMMP actually does. Because whilst I've, I've got a pretty clear idea too. I mean, I certainly want to find out more as well, and I think perhaps explaining RAMP will also answer these questions, but just okay.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:17:04):
Yeah. Got it. I'm gonna start with a spoiler alert. I'm gonna give you the answer, but then I'll tell you a story and then come back to where we are, right? So, oh,

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:17:12):
That's okay. Then people can always fast forward and then go back if they like. Yeah.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:17:15):
Yeah, exactly. So, spoiler alert, in short, at RAMMP, we've cracked the code for how to digitize human relationships, right? So we've got a piece of AI that will look across your website and actually answer that question for you. You know, how much do your site visitors love you? Where are the strong parts of your relationship? Where are the weak parts in your relationship? And more importantly, what can you do to fix the weaknesses, right? So that's what we've done at RAMMP, but let me kind of step zoom out of that and tell you a little story. So and it's a true story, right? So we've been, you know, we have conversations, RAMMP is a tool which can be used by either a business, so like a brand or by a digital agency. So both, those are both kind of two different target audiences for us.
And in our conversations with digital agencies, we have had a number of conversations with very large digital agencies. So, you know, there's a few around the world like the WPPs and the publicist, sapiens and so on. And to give everyone listening a sense, the, these types of agencies typically work with clients like Coca-Cola, Nike, and so on. And clients like Coca-Cola and Nike can literally say, oh, agency X over here will give you an annual budget of 10 million. Good luck. Right? And so the agency will put together a team of people, and typically there'll be five or six people servicing, you know, Coca-Cola at this one agency, Coca-Cola has 10 of these agencies, right? So at the one agency, there might be a team of 10 people, and these people could be designers, they're, you know, designers, developers, and data scientists usually. Mm-Hmm. And so they're looking at all the data and sifting through, and based on that team, working on this one client, they will put together insights, which help Coca-Cola understand effectively how they are doing in their relationship with their target audience, where the weaknesses are, and what they should do about fixing those weaknesses, right?
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So that's, that's terrific. And if you're a brand in the top 2%, and you can afford to speculate 10 million bucks on an agency for some data scientists to do work, terrific. And so, you know, but yes, you're smiling, I'm laughing as well. You know, 98% of perhaps even 99% of the world's businesses don't have that type of marketing budget. Mm-Hmm. But they still have ambitions to grow. And so what we have created at RAMMP is a way for regular brands, you know, the ones without unlimited budgets to access these kinds of insights and to have confidence around knowing, you know, where are the weaknesses in our relationship with our target audience, and what can we do about fixing them? And this is where it comes back to, we've cracked the code on how to digitize human relationships and everything inside RAMMP is based on a piece of AI that looks at on the basis of analytics.
So it's all evidence based and not opinion based. We look at your Google Analytics and a couple of other markers and give you an instant read on how are you tracking, you know, and that way it allows, so for example, for an agency like Roundhouse, you can have, you know, you can access RAMMP, you can run a RAMMP report for one of your clients and have confidence in understanding where is the relationship between that client's website and their audience outperforming where is it underperforming? And then what should we do next month to shift the needle and to fix it? And then of course, cause it's all evidence based, you get a metric, right? You know, that the work we did last month has helped us to improve this weak point in the relationship by, you know, 7.5% or what have you. And through that process and working with, you know, hundreds of high growth brands in the last couple of years, we've been able to consistently shift conversion rates for brands coming back to that strong relationship, this higher conversion rate. We've been able to ship conversion rates by 10, 20, 30, 40%

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:21:14):

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:21:14):
<Affirmative>, so, yeah.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:21:17):
Yeah. So it, if the, I see also, I was reading a little bit about the, the door process, which I kind of like mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, I, I like the sound of that sounds, that's very lovely, but like the, the actual is am I right in assuming that that is the does that represent the core sort of AI element of

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:21:40):

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:21:41):
It does. Yeah.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:21:42):
Yeah, absolutely. So the adore process is the, is what we have patented, right? And, you know, adore love. How much do your site visitors love you? How much do they adore you? It's all, you know, it's all part of that. And so the adore process is that codification of the human relationship, right? How do we as human beings form a relationship and in a human to human way? And I'll step you through that process in a second if you're interested. But human way, it's very natural in a digital way, it's measurable, right? So, you know, if I was to say any human relationship, you've gotta start with an opportunity to meet, right? Like, if there is no opportunity to meet, whether it's a virtual phone call, whether it's a coffee, whether it's standing behind someone in the coffee shop line, you've gotta start with an opportunity. If there's no opportunity, there's no relationship, right? So that's step one. And then step two of that process is the first impression, right? If you don't pass the first impression in a human way, there is no coffee, there is no dinner, there is no, Hey, let's move in together and have seven kids, right? You've gotta, you've gotta pass the first impression, right? So I don't know how you pass the first impression with vomiting on someone's shoes, but that's, let's, let's leave that as a mystery for the universe.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:23:03):
Yes, yes. <Laugh>, yes. I, I often ponder about that,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:23:07):

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:23:08):
But, but, but I, I would put that, I like to put like that kind of, I guess like that as a extreme metaphor for some of the things we're talking about is interesting too. Cause I guess my next question on, on that, when you don't have this step, then you can't go to the next one, does RAMMP have or there's sort of ai, I'm, I guess I'm making an assumption here, that it would also be able to work out or at least have some data to sort of also understand how in the, say, smaller amount of circumstances, even though, like in that instance, theoretically in 99.9% of cases it shouldn't have moved forward, but it did. So say, if you take that to a website and circumstances that, you know, there's a whole number of these that I could sort of run through when say people have say, come to our website or come to somebody's website, and despite the fact that it's not optimized for any sort of conversion or it's not doing work, you know, RAMMP would measure and go, yeah, that's a great next step, let's move forward.
It's not doing any of that stuff. They still go forward mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So does, does RAMMP then like, have some way, I guess like I'm cause I like to try to understand things for myself, so I get it sort of straight in my head. How, or, or first of all does it, and then if it does, without giving away like the, the AI secrets, which I don't expect you to do like how does it then or kind of sort of analyze those little tiny aberrations, like if you will, like, of it's still actually going ahead.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:25:11):
Yeah. The answer is yes. Right? So yes, <laugh>, the answer is yes. Happy to divulge in the secrets. The secrets are all divulged in my, I've written a book, which was published last year in New York. Oh yeah. Digital brand romance. If you, if anyone can't sleep at night, I really welcome you to read that and it'll solve all your problems and you'll learn.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:25:31):
I downloaded that today, actually, I'm gonna

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:25:33):
Read, there you go. Yeah. So you'll have no trouble sleeping. So all the secrets to the adult process are divulged in there, knock yourself out. So yes, and coming back to your point, which is that, okay, and you know, you happen to have a perfect example. In this particular case, that relationship should not have gone ahead, right? The vomit on the shoes going in for the first conversion should not have happened, right? And so what happens if that happens in a digital sense, right? We might have a website which is not optimized for conversion, and you know, we are still making sales. And so, you know, so what, right? Well, couple of things. The first, so what is, you could be making a lot more sales. So, you know, if you're satisfied with, with your, I mean, global average conversion rates are around 2.35%, which most people accept and they're, they're like delighted by 2.35% conversion rates.
And maybe it's because I lived in Vegas, I don't know, but to me that sounds like a 96.75 or whatever. I can't do maths, call it a 97% failure rate, right? Yeah. Like, the only other place I've heard people boast about such big failure rates are casinos in which promise you that you will lose, you know, <laugh> that you'll lose 99 cents in the dollar. Yeah. That's the whole thing. Yeah, exactly. Right? And so digital marketing, the returns are the same. You're guaranteed that 97% of your marketing dollars will be ineffective, right? So what if you, it's crazy.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:27:01):
It's kinda crazy, isn't it?

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:27:02):
It's cra it's crazy. No one talks about this. No, no one, no one sits there

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:27:07):
Probably for good reason. <Laugh>,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:27:08):
Right? But no one says, for good reason, every hundred bucks I put into Google AdWords, I'm guaranteed that 97 of those hundred hard-earned dollars are gonna be wasted because I'm accepting a conversion rate of 3%. And so, you know, looking at the inefficiency in the space, yes, you're probably still making sales and yes, maybe you're making enough sales to, you know, to pay all the bills and cover expenses and so on. But what if you could shift that conversion rate from 3%, 30%, that that's direct impact on your bottom line, right? That's exciting. That's really interesting. Have

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:27:43):
To employ, employ some more people.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:27:45):
Well, yes. And you can either employ more people or you can use RAMMP and work with a great digital agency like Roundhouse. I'm not, I'm saying there's other options. Yeah. So you know, the whole idea is, that's right, is that we don't wanna increase headcount instead of increasing headcount. We wanna make the insights available to a larger to a larger sector of the business world. And so that's the space, that's the universe that we wanna make a dent in, and that's the universe that we are making a dent in. So so first of all, the question was, you know hey, you can have these inefficient websites that still make money. So absolutely you can, but wouldn't it be exciting if you could 10 x your profits, right? By making the pipeline more efficient? Effectively what we're doing is making the conversion pipeline, customer journey, marketing funnel, whatever your words for describing that process are more efficient.
So if you need less, your 3% conversion rates turns into 30% conversion rates, right? So that's the first thing. Second thing is, does RAN pick that up? And the, you know, the answer to that is yes. And right, so we pick up, so the AOR coming back to the AOR process, there are six critical milestones in the AOR process that get measured through RAMMP. So you get a score for each of those markers, and then what ramp does is it tells you which of those six milestones or which of those moments where your relationship is weak, will give you, is the most expensive, right? So your first impression, like your first impression might be, you know, subpar, but you might have milestone number four or five, that's even more subpar. So RAMMP will give you a sense of what is the piece of work that we should do next that's gonna give us the biggest ROI on spend.
So, you know, effectively fix the most expensive leak in your final first. And that doesn't necessarily working on the first impression, it might be something further downstream. So as an example of that, you might have and this is a real example, an app that, you know, everything is going well, they're spending a lot on marketing, people are downloading the app, and then 95% of people who download the app continue to not use it. They don't finish onboarding. Mm-Hmm. You know, again, we've, we, we know of real examples like this because it's not unusual. And so in that regard, RAMMP will point you to the onboarding process and say, this is your most expensive leak. Fix it first. You then still need to work with an agency to fix the leak. We are only a diagnostic, we're not in the business fixing things. And so you work through the process and if you can shift the needle there, you're actually plugging up one of the most expensive leaks in your funnel. And in this particular case, the business, once they had awareness around what to fix, they made some very, very simple UX changes that unblocked a few things in their onboarding process and their revenue went up like really significantly

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:30:46):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> as

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:30:47):
A result

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:30:47):
Of that. It's, it's really it's sort of really interesting to me too on the talking about brand where, where brand and digital services meet because we do a lot of branding and, and often the projects are sort of intertwined. There's, there's talk about branding and, and there's talk about, you know, brand loyalty. There's talking about, you know, your why and all those things that are, are in, I guess in many ways for for most people when they talk about them, it's, it's like sort of talking about art. It's like, it's sort of subjective and there's these sort of, you know, things that don't really relate to data, I guess, from most people. I mean, like, for some people, no, that it's, it's not true. But that's usually people that work in, in sort of our industry who think about things in a different sort of way. Like a builder thinks about building a house, you know, or the plumber's like fixing a pipe. Like he's looking at it and I'm just going, there's, there's like stuff coming out of it and you just fix it, you know? Yeah. I dunno. Anything else, but, you know, so where would you, so I know this is a pretty open ended sort of question, but you can like, break it down into a range of different, like, cool parts, please, Anna. 

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:32:10):
I'll take on the challenge. <Laugh> <laugh>

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:32:13):
Take on answering my super open-ended question. Of which is that like where, like for RAMMP for when it is diagnosing sort of issues, how does how does like the world of brand and somebody's brand that is represented on the website in, I mean, whatever form, visually, language wise, other that is, how does, or how or does that mix in with like other technical aspects of mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, like your version of P H P and WebPress is, is you know, out of day, you know, is, is there this, that's making it slow? Like all those mechanical sort of things. Yeah. Where do those two things meet?

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:33:06):
So I think there's a, a few different layers. Let me, let me take your open-ended question and, and pull it apart a little bit. And hopefully yes, if I get through this and we haven't answered everything, pull me up. Right? So I think one of the first things you raised was this idea that, you know, branding and, and I'm gonna lump marketing into that, but marketing, design, branding are all fairly subjective fields. You know, they're fuzzy. They don't have the precision that mathematics has. And so how to measure success objectively rather than subjectively. And I'm starting there because this is like very, very exciting to me personally because it's actually one of the problems that we set out to solve, right? So it's like, well, and I'll tell you a little story here, so I'll share a story. You, I think around 80 years ago, I was involved in helping helping a client set up an ophthalmology practice, right?
And at the time, you know, we were working on different aspects of it, and one of the things they, they were just tearing their hair out because they had a marketing agency on retainer. They were paying, I think 20 grand a month, which, you know, it's not an insignificant amount of money even for doctors, right? <Laugh>. So going, going out the door to this retain, oh, on a retainer to this marketing agency, and they're just tearing their hair out. They're like, we don't know what we're paying for, but we feel like we need to pay this because the marketing agency is telling us that we must do marketing and we're not seeing any benefits. So what do we do? And then the other issue that came up for this particular client, and then again, over the last, during Covid, I worked with hundreds of brands out of New Zealand.
So I was the digital technology advisor to the country of New Zealand. And, you know, through that got to work with a lot of high growth brands. So brands that were exporting into other geographies. And the thing that came up most often for them as well was this sense of, you know, they would come to me and say, I need marketing. And it's like, well, what does that mean? So part of the issue that we have is that we have a fuzzy industry that's very fragmented. Yep. And until, you know, we can say, you need marketing, you need design, but what does that actually mean, right? So you go down to that next layer and you go, well, performance marketing is very, very different to marketing strategy. And that's really different to brand design and identity design. And that's really different to copywriting, and that's really different to graphic design, which is not at all the same as web design and let alone web development.
So I've listed seven things there, and the, the critical thing about those things is that they're all different skill sets. They're all different capabilities. They probably required different people to do a really good job of each of those, because it's hard to find someone who's a, you know, amazing marketing performance person, understands, S E O C R O is a great graphic designer, stellar copywriter. They can, you know, and they can implement the website for you. Like those people don't exist. So at best, you're working with an agency that has a broad range of capabilities, but from a client's perspective, and if I'm sitting in the shoes of a business owner and I run an ophthalmology practice, all I know is that I need marketing, or all I know is that I need design and I have no way of evaluating success other than the lag sort of, you know, the lag effect of my re on my revenue and my profits.
But that can sometimes take a long time. So how do we solve for that today, right? How do we bring a bit of objectivity into a fragmented space where words are bantered around and they all mean different things to different people. And then to execute well on all of those different words, you need really different capabilities, right? So if you take that, and, you know, I, I'm sure most people listening or nodding their heads going, yep, yep. You know, I, I get this, I'm like confused about what to do next. You know, and everyone I speak to tells me a different story because a web developer will tell you that you need a new version of P H P and some more plug-ins into WordPress, whereas a branding agency will tell you that absolutely you need a rebrand, right? And so how do you make sense of that and make objective decisions?
And so one of the, I'm gonna come back to wrap now only because, you know, in that ADO model, the six milestones, one of the benefits of RAMMP is that we not only measure your performance at each of those milestones, so you have a sense of where your relationship is weak, but we also then match each of the milestones towards the kind of agency or capability that you need to make a fix. So for example, first impression, right? First impression, we understand what that means in a human way, right? I think there's like hundreds of variables that get processed by your mind subconsciously. And at the end of all of that, you get a sense of, yep, I'm gonna continue talking to this person or know they're creepy and I'm gonna run away. Right? So you land on a website, you also get a first impression, and that first impression is made up of things like your value proposition, which are the words it's made up of the, the imagery and all the subtle things like the fonts, the branding, you know, and it's really a very quick assessment of does this align with my expectations?
Does, does this align with my expectations of what I'm looking for? And on the one hand, it's subjective, on the other hand, we actually can measure success there. And once we can put metrics against that, you can start to do things like evaluate the success of a rebrand. So if an agency says to you, Hey, you really, you know, your first impression score is really, really low. We, you know, let's have a look at the branding, the aesthetic, the value proposition. We ship a change, and then a month later we can come back and actually see in numbers and objectively the effectiveness or the impact of that change. And so in a way, you know, we are bringing a little bit of objectivity and evidence-based measurement into a field which typically is associated with being very fuzzy and precise.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:39:20):
Hmm. I think that's a great answer. And I think that yeah, I think I'll just do a quick reevaluation in my mind, see if there's anything that we've missed. Hmm. Yeah, no, I, I think, yeah, I, I mean, I, I a hundred percent agree and I mean, it's, it's a conversation that we and other colleagues like have all the time. And it's, it's why we then like working with like other partners who do marketing because we might do strategic thinking and advising people on their, on, on, on their brand, but we don't then do the implementation of mm-hmm. <Affirmative> marketing. We like, you know, making things visually and also making them work too. But that reality I guess of like outside of, outside of us knowing all that of then when you come to a client and, and then saying you need this and that, then at the end of the day then also comes down to how much they want to spend and how much they can't spend too.
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> on, on, on, or, you know, what they can do at that time. But which I know is often seems like a barrier then to people, but like little steps are always, always great anyway. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, in terms of just like, even, even knowing, like you explaining all that relating to RAMMP for me, like in, in, in my role is regardless of whether somebody could do or had to will to or was able to do something about that straight away, at least they're then a step ahead. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, they're still like a step ahead to know something really, really, really important, you know, that they didn't know before and could be quite possibly the catalyst then to do something about it. Cuz then they mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, well,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:41:23):
Well, exactly. They

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:41:24):
Know what the problem is.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:41:25):
That's it. And I think that's the salient point right there if you know what the problem is. And maybe expanding on that, if you understand what the most expensive problem to fix is at this point in time. So like Right. Yeah.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:41:38):
You a more important point. Yeah,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:41:40):
Exactly. So like, you know, again, it's very, very common. Like you work with brands and you know, I'm talking about the segment of the business world where you might have a marketing person in-house, you have marketing budget, right? So you have, if you don't have marketing budget, it's very difficult to have any kind of conversation with an agency or anyone, right? So you have some amount of marketing budget, maybe you have a dedicated marketing person in-house, but maybe not, you're possibly working with external agencies who you have a relationship, you, you trust them and so on. Or maybe you're working with someone where you're not getting enough traction, but you know, that's kind of the scenario. So let's leave off the table, you know, the brands and the businesses that have 30 people in their marketing department. Yeah. Cause that's so parking that, so the types of brands I'm talking about and that audience where they have some budget and they have some access to marketing design and, you know, broad strokes, that area of capability, digital capability you know, typically for, for those types of brands, the ver the hardest thing for them to work out is what should we do next?
Like, what is the thing that is most worth doing next? Because that's the most important

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:42:55):

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:42:55):
Us exactly. Like in front of us is Mount Everest. We have a roadmap with like 37 different projects that we all, that we wanna do. We don't have the, we don't have the manpower in, in-house to do all of that. We don't have the budget to hire 57 different agencies all at the same time to do the work. And so the problem really comes down to what is the problem that's worth solving and what is the one that's gonna give us the biggest r ROI on our spend next month?

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:43:21):
Yeah. I guess that's the Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Right. It's, it's even, I know even personally when you're, you know, let alone for clients which you can very easily recognize, giving people, me included too much information too soon is, can be completely paralyzing you mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, to, to go well, you know, all you, the emotional reaction is often, well, I'll just, I'll just think about that like next year sometime <laugh>, because Yeah, exactly. That's, that's, that's just, well that's just like too much. I've got all this other stuff going on. I've got this and that. I've gotta do client work, I gotta, you know, and then people in their small business or, or offer that matter, any sign, any size business, and perhaps I would probably say even more so in a different way, sometimes with bigger businesses, when somebody higher up the chain who's had zero to do with what's going on in the marketing department, who then all of a sudden one day has got a bit of like, spare time up their sleeve and they're going, let's have a look at what's going on.
And yeah, I can see if somebody is probably like flashback, you know, people going, they go, yeah, I should really see what you know, John's doing in the marketing department goes down and say what's going on? And John's like, oh my God, finally have to, you know, it, it hasn't been working out because I dunno what's going on. And then there's like a bunch of questions that need to be answered. And then maybe he's gone to somebody and they've said, you've gotta do these things. And then John, who is, is sort of in the know more than the person up the chain. Then the person up the chain is like, well, you know, that just sounds like though, I, I would imagine a common response, which I guess I've seen too, is, you know, well, you know, they need to understand then, or they want to understand, but then they're not in a position to be able to, so then it becomes even worse, you know, in, in many ways because there's an element of Chinese whispers in there too. If someone said this, they may have said it some months ago, by that point, it's, yeah,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:45:41):
It's not precise

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:45:42):
Even, it's not even translated correctly. Even if the information in the first place was, was accurate or good mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, which it may not have been, it may have been like partially then it gets down to here and I mean, yeah. I mean I, I a hundred percent agree and, and my question, my open-ended question a while back about like where, you know, brand and that meets was, I guess I asked that mainly because of, of like how you've actually answered it in the sense that there's so many ambiguous you know, things that are so fluid that you know, the things that you can count on or that you can actually analyze, then at least the things you can do, you should do. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and, and, and that you can work out from there. And then you can, you know, do testing. You know, you can go, here's this key point that's not working mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, we don't know. We'll just accept and go, we don't a hundred percent know yet grand agency, you know, should really Well, I mean, you want to kind of exude confidence about something and you'll be like, we feel this is good, but do you a hundred percent know? Of course you don't, you know, you don't, no ab

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:47:01):
Absolutely, there's no silver bullet, right? Like there is not a, if any, if anyone in the world says to you, I have, I know exactly what you need to 10 x your conversion rates, they're probably, they're probably pull the wool over your eyes. There's absolutely an element of experimentation, right? But yeah, being able to point to data and objective metrics allows all the opinion to be taken out, right? So it allows you to set up experiments and test those experiments month on month to see which of the things, which of the actions that we're putting forward are going to actually help us to build a stronger relationship with the target audience, right? Which things are helping us to lead towards that and which things are not. And so if Jack or John or Mary or whoever comes down from upstairs and says, Hey, this month we should be doing this because I've gotta spare 10 minutes and I'm pivoting the team, right?
That's terrific. And you can take that on board, but ultimately you can point at metrics and say, this is what we're working on right now. We're fixing the most expensive leak, and this is the uplift that we've had since we started the project and in the three months we've made this much progress. Right? So it's really helpful not only to ease the burden of reporting, because right now reporting success in this whole digital field is incredibly hard and again, open to interpretation and opinion, and everyone who does it does it differently. And it takes a week to pull together a management report and who has time for that, right? So getting that straight out of the box by using a tool that ingests your analytics and gives you a sense of here's your read on the six important metrics that have to do with how we form relationships. Here's how you've improved or perhaps not improved since last month. Like knowing that you've gone backwards gives you a sense of, hey, whatever we're doing, you know, the experiment we are trying in this, in this space in the last month isn't working, let's try something else.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:48:58):
Hmm. What would you say then, I guess also to a key point that seems to like it, it crops up a lot in, in our industry too, of people who are doing reporting and they're doing analytics and then they say you know, and even if they're then saying, and we should try this after a certain point in time, most, you know, clients or people on the receiving end of the information will be starting to question whether like that process is just there to generate further work for the agency, or whether it's really legitimately actually doing some good. So imagine like with, with rampant seams and, and you can fill in the blanks here as mm-hmm. <Affirmative> as to ramping able to provide information, but also then to give more substantial suggestions for how to, how to fix those things instead of, instead of like a seemingly endless cycle, which I'm not saying cause there's a lot of people that do under really like, think about things really properly, but I'm talking about more the perception on the other end. Yeah, yeah, for sure. About that. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere and, and, you know, they're saying it's a hard problem to solve. Like, is it really that hard, you know mm-hmm. <Affirmative> that's sort of response, you know,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:50:32):
A hundred percent. And you know, it comes back to that story about the ophthalmology clinic where the marketing agency was just saying, keep paying us a retainer, it'll eventually be good. And you're like, well, at what point do I go? Is it like, where's the evidence? And so I think you, that's, you know, that's a really salient and interesting point, and that is that one of the reasons why we have made the strategic decision to be an impartial diagnostic. So we are not in the business of providing consulting services. We don't fix any of the fixes because we realize that, you know, that breaks out credibility instantly. We can't be recommending to do a fixing. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And then, you know, jumping in and, and doing the fix ourselves, that will completely compromise us. So we provide the diagnostic, which then as an agency or as a brand, you can use the diagnostic knowing that it is objective.
Like we don't, we don't gain anything from any fix that's implemented and there is enough, you know, the guidance inside RAMMP that comes out of the box will give you strategic direction and it it walks you through. It effectively allows you to collate an informed brief, right? So if you're a brand and you, you use ran, it will take you through the process and allow you to know who to work with and what kind of piece of work you want to ask them to do. Right? So the high level brief for an agency, it's the same. It allows you to educate the client around what is the piece of work that we ought to be doing next? This is what it looks like in broad strokes, but the work itself, it's still up to the agency to execute on the creative aspect of that. Right?
So, ok, that's, we can say the direction you need to go in is a rebrand and check the copywriting on your value proposition. And these are the kinds of questions that you might wanna think about as you're working with your brand or agency. But the work and the magic is still up to the agency to perform. And again, because recognizing that the work is always experimental in nature, it, it's really wonderful to approach the entire, I guess, relationship with your client. And this is where becoming a trusted strategic partner partner is really important. Right? So I'll come to Roundhouse because I want advice and execution on what to do, not just because I want a new website, but because I want you guys to tell me what type of things should I be putting into my website to create a strong relationship, to create a great experience as to improve conversion rates. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, right? And so through that process, you still allow you a hundred percent rely on the agency to do what they do really well, right? But it provides a little bit of structure and objective guidance as to what exactly should we be working on next to make sure that we're plugging up all the leaks in the funnel.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:53:22):
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a, that's like a for me anyway, that's like a bit of a almost, maybe secret source isn't the right <laugh> right, sort of term, but it's, it's, it's like the missing little bit sort of in the, in the recipe for a lot of people because like, there's big questions about, you know, it's about like, even if you then say, like we were saying before, there's you know, look, we've we've been refining this particular aspect of your campaign or your website and we're seeing these results, and then three or four months down the track you're still saying the same thing. And that might still be true. That might still be, that's actually what's, what's happening. Like people aren't pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. Like that's what's happening. But that's still regardless of very hard sell to people who who, who aren't in the know and especially, and then triply quadruple.
So for people who really don't like thinking about or interacting with technology, they just want it frustrating and they get angry mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and they, and they just no, I just don't wanna talk about, you know, and but having information and evidence that can be, you know, shown and have a direct correlation. I guess this gets back a little bit to my question about brand too, and I'll, I'll, I I do actually have a clarification on, on that, which is when, I mean, when you're talking about, say for example the specific metrics when, like say probably relates to like, am you the bounce rate when somebody comes into your website and then they leave straight away. Is there, would you say from your current information and things that you've learned by a RAMMP, that there's a direct correlation in whole, or at least in part with just purely the visual aspect of what they experience when they first come into recite?
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and, and the content too. I mean, my impression has generally always been in the first, because people don't read that quickly and they don't read everything down there. They just come in and they see the experience, they feel, and then they're in further, well then they're out. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So, I mean, my, my general thinking has always been that that's just purely a, a visual experience cause that's all they're experiencing. So would that relate then straight away to, you know, and does it make sense then to say there's a direct correlation then to the branding as, as a whole? I mean, you know, like the,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (00:56:17):
Yeah, so I'll, I'll break that down a little bit. So the, the the milestone inside RAMMP or inside the ADORE process. Right? If you, if you look at the ADORE process itself, the milestone that relates to branding is the first impression. So, you know, first impression, first 10 seconds, it's probably really six seconds. But what happens there? And so there are definite ingredients that go into that. And branding in a, in broad strokes is part of that. So when you think about you, yourself, you go to a website, like anyone listening, you land on a website and you make a very quick assessment around this website is going to steal my credit card and my identity, versus I'm going to stay a while and read a little bit more. Or I have no idea what they're pri what they're selling. I'm not gonna stick around because look, there's a cute cat video, right?
So yes, there's all of those ingredients. So branding, you know, do you communicate the value to your target audience effectively enough in that first instant? And when you think about what goes into a first impression in a pragmatic, you know, in a practical kind of sense in digital, it's the font, the colors, the images, what happens in that very first hero part of the website. So absolutely, branding is a large component of that. You know, the inside RAMMP. And if I look inside, kind of peel the layers back and look at, well, what does the RAMMP, how does RAMMP ai or how does the adult process measure that first impression? Bounce rates are an ingredient in that, but they're not the only ingredient. Hmm. And so this is where you really need to work with a, with a digital agency, because sometimes, like your first impression score might be low, but it might not be because the branding and the value proposition aren't, right. It could be because you've put a completely different marketing campaign in market and the promise that you're making in the campaign, it doesn't correlate.
It doesn't correlate, right? Yeah. Yeah. So there's a cognitive dissonance. I'm being, I'm clicking on a link that's promising me a vanilla ice cream, and I'm landing in a place that's selling shoes. And you're like, what the, I was expecting vanilla ice cream. I must be in the wrong place. Let me walk out the door. Right? Yeah. So, you know, it's not like a, something is going wrong. So I think even having awareness around the fact that we've changed nothing but our first impression score has dropped, for example, that makes you think, hang on. Well, if our first in, in, if, if that first impression score has dropped and we haven't changed any branding, we haven't changed any ship, we haven't shipped anything different here, then that's a really clear indicator that we need to look at what happened before. Have we got something in market? Maybe it's as simple as the marketing campaign is sending people to the wrong landing page. Right? Yeah.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (00:59:08):
Yeah. Just, just simple. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's, it's, I mean, it sounds, it sounds very sort of interesting overall as, as the tool. And I think like there's it's, it's, it's good that it sort of covers covers it in from what I understand from what you're saying in, in a sort of a really impartial way, which you can obviously do when you just have data, is you've got the data and then you dive in and work out mm-hmm. <Affirmative> where those paths go and what that might actually mean, which is always a little bit of a, you know, a a mystery. Sometimes, sometimes it's really obvious, I guess, you know, at first glance it's much more obvious than other things. But sometimes it takes a bit more work to find that out. But a lot of it seems to relate back then to just overall trust with ultimately how people trust anything.
 Trust, trust you or I, or trust their friends or family, or trust a stranger, or then go onto a website. And you know, whilst it might seem insignificant to some people, like you said, if they click on a campaign, and even if that service is ahma, this is like, you know, sort of add ad words or, you know, paper per click simple basic sort of things like having a learning page that's talking about, you know, what your, what your the ad says is using the same words. I mean, it's just, it's like, you know, if I say something and you go and somebody else says, sorted and say that he said this, and it's like, hang on, what whatcha are you talking about?

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:01:05):
Exactly. It's an immediate moment where that trust, you know, it, it is an

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:01:09):
Lose a little bit of trust. Yeah. It just goes down a little bit. Yeah. I mean that's, but so if you are the could you speak I guess a little bit more about say if you've got any other sort of great stories about like power of, of insights that people have actually gained, like can be be another agency, it can be, you know, just people who've found great insights and it had, and it's had a really great correlation for them mm-hmm. <Affirmative> into real world results.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:01:49):
Oh, I can talk for hours. So careful what you wish for Soul <laugh>.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:01:53):
I wish, I wish you to tell me a story, Anna.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:01:55):
All right. I'm gonna tell you a story. So I'm gonna pick out, just go through my mental memory bank of stories and pick out some of the maybe most memorable where we've had a really big impact. Like we've, you know, we've identified what is the issue made the change. The change is typically really easy and we've had a big impact as a result. So one of the things that, and, and so through, you know, we are not yet at a point where we can give statistically significant data around making this kind of change on your website will result in this kind of uplifting conversion rates. So this is anecdotal, but I can tell you that these are patterns which I see over and over again, and every time they're fixed, they will give you a noticeable, uplifting conversion rate. So for example, you land on a website, right?
And you get 10 popup screens that say, sign up to a newsletter, get 10% off when you blah, blah, blah. You know what? You're laughing. You, you've been there, you've seen that you know book a demo or talk to our consultants, right? Again, if you look at professional services or SaaS companies, everyone leads with book a demo talk to talk to a consultant. And the problem is that book a demo and talk to a consultant is quite an intimate thing. You don't go on a first date and ask for marriage, right? Whereas Booker demo is marriage. And so you've gotta take someone on a coffee date and then you've gotta take 'em out for dinner. And only then do you have the right to ask them to marry you, right? I've never get the demo ever, right? A hundred percent, right? So that totally, you know, speaks to that because Booker demo is too intimate.
And so if you do nothing else, right? If people listening at home, if they do nothing else except call Saul up today and ask Saul to change Book A Demo to View a Demo, and you play a prerecorded demo, which is maybe a minute or two minutes long, and at the end of the demo, there's a call to action to book a demo. You're gonna increase your demo bookings by a really significant amount. And so the times we've put this into play, the increase in demo bookings has been between 30 and 90%, right? So, real live examples, again, I'm not talking about businesses like Nike that have unlimited budgets. These are ordinary businesses that are just doing their best to get ahead and figure out what is the thing that we can change to significantly uplift things. Conversion rates downstream. So Booke a Demo is an easy one.
And anything else where you lead when you, you know, look at your website with fresh eyes, and if you're leading with things that ask for a really strong level of commitment, that's going to imply a low conversion rate. So you've gotta put in place stepping stones that allow me as your site visitor to build trust with you, right? So give me, give me something where I can engage with you in a soft way and maybe ask for my email and then follow up with something else where maybe I'm getting to know you a little bit more and you're delivering more value to me. Maybe invite me to a webinar, right? And then you have the right to ask me for a bit more information about myself, which I'll be happy to give you because you're delivering value. And then all of a sudden you've taken me from stranger to someone who's quite familiar with you. And then when you ask me to book demo, it's a natural consequence, I'm ready for it.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:05:20):

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:05:20):
So that's sort of that whole genre is, is an example. I think another example that comes up often and, you know, not to stereotype, but typically in in professional services companies and areas where we have very hard technical products, you know, it's the whole I wanna tell you everything about my product on the first date, right? I wanna tell you my entire life story. We've only just met. But let me tell you about all the dirty laundry.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:05:50):
Super excited. Cause they're super,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:05:51):
Well, I'm super excited and, you know, let, let's get straight into the weeds. And you know, the things to look for here are, if your website talks about your internal business processes, that's a major red flag because here is the uncomfortable truth. No one cares about your business, right? They only care about how what you do will make their life better. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, right? Yeah. So if you're talking about your internal business processes, that's a sleeper. Again, I've gone to watch cat videos really, really quickly, right? If you are talking about how those internal business processes will make my life better. So in other words, you're telling me the benefits of working with you. I'm interested because it's a conversation about me, right? So how you unfold your story, you know, resist that urge to go straight into the weeds and tell me everything, focus on how does your product make my life better?
Be clear about it because then I'm interested and then I'm going to engage deeper with your brand, and then I'm be ready to sign up to something. I will be ready to download the white paper, which goes into all the detail, right? So there's a time for it. It's just that that's not what you lead with. So again, these are small, you know, these are smallish changes, but they require a different perspective and they require definitely outside help because if you're sitting in your business and you are thinking about your business day in, day out, you lose the ability to be objective. And so working with a great digital agency gives you that objectivity because that can step you through the process.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:07:28):
Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's a really key point. The one which I think people often want to, they want to get to the end and they want to get the quick answer. And I mean that's, that's probably even more of a cultural thing you know, than anything with people wanting their fuel boy being under pressure. They they need money coming in. They think something's gonna be a magic bullet that fuels other people's perceived requirement to do things quickly, which then can lead to like those end result things of, of, we just need to tell people that they've gotta us and they've gotta do this instead of, you know, that idea that it's gonna be an extra two steps ahead that they can take out the other two or three of just like, Hey, I'm just going to know you and we'll, you know, trust, which is pretty basic human thing to do, you know, is, is you don't, you know, there's no, you know, it's in, I mean, wouldn't go to any networking group or anything, you know, and people will just say, here's my card.
Just gimme a call, you know? Oh, okay. So, yeah. And then well, I, I won't, I won't ever do that cause I, like, I don't even know your name. But, you know, it is, it is just, it's just really it's nice then to I guess hear that as well. And that, and that the AI and the thought that you've, I guess put into this, this tool is, is sort of thinking on that angle. I think that's, that's, that's really interesting to me, like being in, in the world of, of apps and, and seeing it sort of change, especially over the last however many years, like, I guess, you know, 10, 10 to 12 years since we had been developing and designing apps and seeing why people mm-hmm. <Affirmative> like apps, apps and, and websites. So a bit more in the world of like web apps and apps on the app stores, you know? So I guess ass a segue into like another question there too, is that have you seen four, four people, you know, who've, who've had a website? And I guess actually just a side question, does it also then integrate them with apps? It's not just about websites, it's also the analytics side for apps and things too, obviously, isn't it?

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:10:12):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the ADORE process itself, right? And the markers that you put into it, we can apply that to anything. We can apply it to online dating. We are indeed doing that. We can apply it to professional development and leadership coaching to get a measure of, you know, how are you progressing in that relationship with yourself and your personal development. We can apply it to how you're tracking on a website we can apply it to. Oh, interesting. How is your app working? Right? So at the moment, when you jump on RAMMP, the language is for uses Google analytics language. So, you know, to, to apply it to an app, you simply have to map the parameters. So it won't be site visitors, it'll be app, app downloads and so on. Yeah.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:10:57):
Yeah. So,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:10:59):

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:11:00):
Yeah. So then have you, have you seen, or do you have any examples or, you know, sort of seen any trends in relation to, like people say with apps or things where say that their business model has evolved and they had a certain application or a specific online business and in a time period now gone where that was super popular and they saw a, a really strong sort of lot of traffic coming through a certain channel of theirs, and then that's changed. Have you seen like any trends emerging, I guess in terms of the popularity or lack of, of that in terms of people's use of, say, apps on, on the app store, you know, from that sort of things?

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:11:52):
Yeah, look quite openly, I'm not the right person to ask about that. Hmm. Right. So for, for us, we treat all the different marketing channels in aggregate, and we give you a read on the aggregate relationship that you have with your entire target audience. So we are not in the space of attribution. Got it. Yeah. So, you know, the zero second milestone, the very first milestone inside Ram looks at the net effect of all of your marketing. So whether that was through Facebook or whether it was through downloads on the app store, whether it was through some campaign that you ran on Instagram or TikTok or wherever, we look at the net effect of all of that, and assume that in the website, sense that the traffic is coming to your website from all the marketing efforts that you're doing out there, organic, paid, et cetera. Right? So at the moment you know, there, there are people, and again, this is where you go, well, what is the right subspecialty to ask the question of? And it would be someone who specializes in marketing performance.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:12:55):
Yeah, okay. Sure. Yeah, no, I, I just thought, yeah, I thought there may have been, but, but, but that also, I guess answers like another question too, like, about how it's, that it's more of a, you know, it's a Im impartial tool that's just looking purely at the data mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and then Yeah. And then everyone else that's then handed over to other people to to do their thing, you know, as required. Yeah,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:13:20):
Exactly. So then

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:13:22):
Sit back and go, wow, that's a great amount of information. I should do something about it one day.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:13:28):
I know, right? So I think, I think that coming back to sort of pulling the conversation together into what we've been talking about, you know, we often say that as long as there is a human being on the other side of your, of the computer screen, who's making the decision to buy, because ultimately, if you're in business, you need someone to make a decision to buy. So as long as those decisions are being made by human beings, right? We need to develop a relationship with that human being. And the awesome thing is that as human beings, we develop relationships in a systematic way. Like there is an algorithm to how we form relationships, and it's all based on this idea that of incremental trust building, right? So you need to build trust and it needs to, and as a human being, you can't fast track that with a couple of caveats, right?
If you get a strong endorsement from someone that you trust, you do fast track the relationship forming you know, the, the trust building part of the process. Because it's kind of like, if you think of the six markers, if you get a referral from someone who you trust personally, it fast tracks the first three markers and lands you in the middle of the relationship. But outside of that, people, human beings have a certain pattern to how they form relationships, right? And so, because of that pattern, and because the relationship evolves in digital, we can measure the progress. And, you know, it's kind of exciting. It's a different lens for looking at all of this. And, you know, the thing that we're just really, really excited about at RAMMP is not only the ability to bring objectivity to a field which is fragmented and fuzzy, but to really bring insights and marketing strategy that were previously only available to really big companies with really big budgets to the average business owner so that they can answer those questions around, what is the thing that I should do next? I'm so confused, you know, I want to grow my business I want it to be successful, but what is the one thing that I should do next? And so we help with that. And if we can help people be more successful in that, it creates better lives. It gives people more time for coffee and holidays. What's not to love about that?

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:15:53):
Yeah, I mean, it, it, it very much strongly sort of resonates with me too. Cause I've, I've always had it's just me, like a strong love for equally creative things and technical things, and where those two things meet, you know, that I guess that fueled a little bit of why I asked those other questions about mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, it, the why it sort of analyzes or doesn't, I guess strictly speaking, analyze branding, but it analyzes the results of the effects of, or or the lack of effects of it on

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:16:30):

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:16:31):
On, on the, in the tool, your website or your app. So like, understanding that idea which is why I asked it, I think in about three different ways, <laugh> before, cause I was just trying to get my head around like, you know, how how other people, like other business owners would interpret that. And, and, and actually think about it. Cuz I, I, you know, for some people it's super easy. They're like, oh yeah, a hundred percent understand it. And other people are like, I just really, that frustrates me. And I don't, I don't like need to understand it either, which is fine. I mean, you know, don't need to understand it. That's, that's good. You're probably got, you're probably much better just doing things you're good at. But still, it's still great information. But in, in my experience though, this is just like, something that I've found is that I've found over the years with a few exceptions, that, you know, even when people say, and this is like not just non-technical people or non people in, in our industry, but people in general, when they say, look, are really not interested, I, I don't understand it.
It frustrates me and they get angry by it. I've found that whilst that on the face of it is true, I've found most of the time it's just because they have never been shown. A good easy way to understand it is, is that it's, it's not that they don't, I mean, they kind of say it, but that's just really the result of it always being presented to them in a way, it's obviously a lack of a willingness perhaps, but, you know, if you overlook that and, and, and just don't go well, it's their fault, you know, is that they just need to have a way that is, you know, that has data and something more concrete, you know, that they can like, hang their hat on that is better. I mean, it still wanna be exact, you know, perfect way that they would idealize in their brain, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it'd be just like one thing, like standing in front of them and they're like, oh yeah, that's it. You know, it's more complicated, but still a better way to do it.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:18:55):
Yeah, for sure. You know, so I'll, I'll tell you another story, right? Oh,

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:18:58):
Good good's,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:18:59):
Another story. So I'll start here. I, I am sure that most businesses, no matter what size they are, collect Google Analytics, right? They, they collect the Google analytics, and maybe some people actually log into that dashboard and have a look inside there. And I've really, I've been in the space for many, many years and I've worked with a full range of different brands and different people and so on. And to date, I still have never met a single person, including myself, right? Who can look inside Google Analytics and go, oh, of course, this is exactly what we should do next month, because I'm looking at all this data that we are collecting, you know, or you look at a mixed panel dashboard with all these graphs and dials and data and things pointing in every which way. And to look at that and go, oh, of course we need to do, we need to take a look at our call to actions because they're not being effective, right? Yeah. That just doesn't happen, right? So, you know, the ability to bring clarity and something really usable and intuitive to the space and make it evidence-based, I think is a really, really exciting thing. So, yeah. Agree.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:20:04):
Here's the

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:20:04):
Story. You know, when I was a kid, I used to think that I used to think that relationships were something magical, right? Like, you either lucked out and you, you had good friendships and you had good relationships, or you didn't, you know, things like studying for a maths test that's really tangible, you can put the work in and you get a grade based on how much work you put in swimming training you put, you put the work in, in training, and you see your times going down, right? Direct correlation relationships, something mysterious and magical. And some people were good at it, and some people weren't good at it, right? And so 10, 15 years ago, I came across this article in the New York Times and the article was called To Fall in Love with Anyone, do This, right? And I'm like, what is this magic?
Right? Anyway, long story, oh, that's a call to action. I'll click on that. Right? Right. So it caught my attention and I read the article and I thought, this is a bunch of, you know, sense, sense of the next word, bs th this is what, like no way, there is no formula for love. What I was very cynical about it. Yeah. But anyway, picked my curiosity. So I went and I looked at the original research out of Columbia University, and it was a, a professor called Aaron and a bunch of his colleagues, and they were looking at effectively, what is the formula for love? How do we form relationships as human beings? And so I got interested in that and I thought, well, if you can form, if you can get two people to fall in love, why can't you get a person and a brand to fall in love?
You know? And this is again, my very commercial lens of how do we have, how do we turn this into something which will have commercial benefit for business owners? And so that's where it all started. And so I think it's that, you know, what, what you were talking about before where things are kind of fuzzy and confusing, and what do we do? What do we make of all of this that's true. Until you can put a really crisp and clear formula behind something. And, you know, there is I think it's not, it's not, I always think it's Winston Churchill, but it's actually not. It's someone else that had that had said, I'm sorry, I wrote you a long letter. I didn't have time to write you a short one. Right. You'll, you'll be able to look up and see who that's attributed to originally.
But, you know, I'm sorry, I wrote you a long letter. I didn't have time to write you a short one. And it's like, at face value, you can look at Google Analytics and you can look at Hot Jar, and you can look at Mix Panel and all of those things, which are very useful. I'm not at all saying that they don't have their place, but you know, they're not really intuitive and they don't give you a sense of what you need to do next. And so being able to put a formula to how we form relationships so that you can look at something and instantly know this is exactly, this is how much my side visitors love my brand, right? This is where the weaknesses in the relationship with my target audience are, and importantly, this is what I need to do next to uplift the quality of that relationship. Like that's a really cool thing. And you know, it's really simple and it's really intuitive. And interestingly, one of the comments that we get when we run people through a demo, especially agencies that are used to using a lot of detailed analytics, is that, how can this be so simple? Right? And so, you know, our answer to that is, well, we worked a really long time to write you a short letter. We could have sent you a long one. Right? Nice

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:23:27):
<Laugh> Yes. Boom. Yeah,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:23:29):
There you

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:23:29):
Go. Yeah, no, exactly. That's, that's, that's both really, really funny. And, and also sort of that kind of insight too was like, as, as you were answering that, I was actually thinking my next question was gonna be like, how do you, how do you overcome, or what do you say to people who have, have, have their like suspicions or questions about like, how, how are you able to do that? Like, how is it so easy when everything else that I see is, is so, so complicated? And you just answered that.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:24:05):
That's it. So, you know, I mean, ultimately the litmus test is what's your conversion rate? So if your conversion rates are two, 3% and 97% of your marketing budget is ineffective, and you want to fatten that pipeline, you wanna fatten your marketing funnel, do something about it. And this is a way to figure out exactly what you need to do. So, you know, it's sort of like, again, you can take the opinion away. Do you trust it? Do you not trust it? Well have a crack at it. And if it's giving you results Yeah. With your answer. Yeah.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:24:38):
Well, there's an element, I mean, in, in, you know, diving into something and there's like, well, what's the risk? You have to have a little bit of faith in things. Like I, you know, I'm a big believer that there's, there's obviously a, a tipping point with lots of things that you haven't tried. You can't be, I mean, you can easily go, oh, I dunno about that. Cuz I was like, burnt a you other times. And I said, that's really left a big scar on me. And I'm, you know, pretty, I'm pretty, you know, I'm really hub hardened up now. I'm not gonna do anymore. You know, or you can just go, well, maybe this time will be good. Sounds really interesting, you know? Yeah. You know for sure and has some great stories. Anna's got some great stories. She explains it really well. No, but it's, no, it's, it's really great. And, and I think it's certainly, you know, any, anything that helps, even if it ends up helping a little bit, can sometimes heavenly have a disproportionately large effect on just people's mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. you know, even this is probably a big call, but I, I know in some elements it's true, it could have a disproportionately large effect on changing people's minds about the use of digital tools in general mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, because people are, you know, one overwhelmed, two, they use hip stuff, they're busy, they're like, ah, it didn't work for me. See a later,

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:26:03):
You know mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and Yeah. You know, and I think a lot of that comes from lack of confidence and lack of confidence comes from lack of trust and lack of prior success. And so under getting some wins on the board and getting some understanding, it often turns people who are very skeptical into people who are not skeptical anymore. And this is where, you know, things like formulas and algorithms, they all give people shortcuts to getting a whole lot of understanding in a really simple way. Right? So, you know, I often, I often joke that typically if you take someone who's very cynical and in the beginning with RAMMP, we were doing workshops, now it's a button, right? So you don't have to sit through a two hour workshop with me, you can press a button and there you go. You get your insights in 30 seconds, which I'm sure most people will say is far more enjoyable than sitting through a two hour workshop.
But nevertheless, in, you know, in the workshops and especially with the, you know, some, some audiences are more cynical than others. There are those audience that says, as you said, we've been burnt before, we've tried marketing before. It hasn't worked for us. It's a waste of, of money and time. It's all fuzzy. We don't trust it because it's not concrete. Right. You know, and oh, and the other good one that always comes up is all our work is by word of mouth. Oh yeah. We don't, we don't need to, we don't need digital. Cause all our work is word of mouth, mouth. And that's like terrific. But you know, what do you, if you wanna expand into a geography where you don't know Bob and his neighbor, you know, Sue, and you can't pick up the phone, you're gonna have to rely on digital at some point in time.
So Mm. Typically in those workshops, it would take 17 minutes to turn the biggest cynics into believers. And the reason why it only took 17 minutes, and don't ask me why, I guess I got bored after hundreds of workshops and I started timing this. So, you know but the reason why I took such a short amount of time is that as soon as you give someone a formula and you say, this is the process for how we form relationships and on a human to human level, you completely understand it. Like you go, yeah, sure, we need to have an opportunity. I need to pass the first impression, and then we need to align on life stories and values. And only then is there an exchange of value where we make a commitment, you know, we don't move in together after the first date.
That would be absurd. Mm. We don't get married on the first date. That would be absurd. Right? So it, it follows a particular cadence. And it evolves in a very, like, once you, once you think about it in that way, you're like, well, of course I've just never thought about it that way. But the process itself is really, really simple. And so, because everyone can identify with that, cause it's so human, you know, as soon as you go, well, we're now taking that, we are capturing that and putting it into digital because at the end of that computer screen, there is still a human being who's trying to make a relationship with your brand. The process is the same. And so I think that's, you know, that's often the, I guess that's often the thing that turns cynics into people who are willing to give it a go.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:29:11):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. No, I think that's a, that the correlation between humanity and digital is, is a, is an, an important one that people often do separate and rightly so. I mean, there, there's, you know, it's, it's a hard, well, not hard, but it's, at first glance, it's, it's a a bit of a hurdle for people just to jump over to go, oh yeah, I can see the re you know, that yes, people go, actual people go to your website and then they actually call you mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But like the actual tools and, you know, the, the information that you can gain really from what is from most people, their primary you know, source of new, of new income, you know, for their business and then for their lives and for their family, all these things that have a direct human correlation, you know, to separate them is really, you know, to is is not, not really Right.
That's not very sensible either, you know, but it's, it's a, it's the main tool for most people. So mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, it should be, I guess treated with respect, you should say, but, you know, treated with the, the given the right you know, food almost like, you know, feeding it with the rightio sort of tools and information so it can perform, so it can do what it really should be doing for you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it's not just like showing you things or telling people things. It's also then, you know, giving very important information about what people like.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:30:55):
That's it. And you know, we're, we're used to doing this in other aspects of our lives, right? So everyone listening has gone to a doctor, you go to your GP and the GP says, do some blood tests, and you go and you do the blood tests, and you come back to the GP and they say, your cholesterol is low, high, or, you know, fantastic. And so because you've done the test and the GP tells you that, you go, okay, I get it. Now what should I do next? But if you just went to the GP and the GP looked at you and said, I reckon your cholesterol is off, you'd be like, what, what are you basing that on? That's just your opinion. How do you know, you know, that's funny. I don't trust this, but as soon as you do a test and you have something which is measurable and objective, yeah. You have faith in that. And then when the doctor says, oh, your cholesterol is too high, we recommend this program. Or, you know, whatever lifestyle changes to remedy that. I mean, it's up to you whether you do it or not, but at least you understand what needs to be done. Right. And I think the first bit is understanding what needs to be done, and then second bid is actioning that.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:32:01):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Well, we had just as a, as a like a little thing that popped into my head then, I mean, it's is exactly the, those real world things that everyone accepts as as completely yellow. Why wouldn't you? Like we had drainage problem in our property, some news back, and we never knew exactly why. We had a general idea of why it wasn't draining away through this particular drain that seemed normal. And it was only then, like, once we got into the nitty gritty of having like a camera down the pipe that we found there was just, it was not completely, but mostly blocked with roots, and then we had the right information. I mean, that was completely, you know, that wasn't any great mystery that I was like, you know, really against doing. I was like, I'm never gonna, I'm, I'm just gonna like, see what happens, you know, I'm gonna like, had to be, had to be resolved.
So yeah, there's the jump between that and between physical things you can see and virtual things that, you know, still pack up such a big part of all, all of our lives. But yeah, I mean, a as, as we're, I guess, you know, nearing towards the end of the podcast, I, I'll probably just also at this point ask you too, Anna, if we've covered like a lot of great stuff like relating to RAMMP, but is, is there anything else that you would really, I guess, like, to say that you feel that we haven't quite sort of covered, I, I guess from some really sort of great aspects of it that we haven't really touched on?

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:33:55):
I think it's been a pretty wide ranging conversation. And so maybe a good place to finish on is to leave that to the audience, you know, if for the folks listening, if you, if there are things we haven't covered, send a note to Soul, we'll answer your questions.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:34:11):

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:34:12):
Yeah. Easy. That should,

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:34:13):
That should be the end of the podcast, but it's not gonna be, but the <laugh>

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:34:17):

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:34:18):
But we'll, we'll splice later.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:34:20):
Keep, keep them on their toes, soul.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:34:22):
Yes, that's right. Exactly. But what I will, I will, I will put you on the spot though now and, and, and actually ask you ask you if there is, say some, say a really great quote or something really relevant that you feel that you can just like, pull out of your head right now, or very quickly jump on the computer and Google if you want to.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:34:47):
Oh, I can't type that fast. You know, it's not gonna happen. So ok. A great quote. I, well,

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:34:52):
Well, a great quote or something. It doesn't have to come from like somebody famous like Churchill. It could just come from you, like something that you actually feel would be really relevant as a parting note for everybody.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:35:07):
Well, we've got the one, I didn't have time to write you a long letter, so I wrote you a short one, but Oh yeah, you're

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:35:12):
Good one.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:35:13):
Yeah, we've already covered that. And

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:35:14):
Oh, you have to do another one now.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:35:15):
It'll be too hard to splice that into the end of the podcast. So let me come up with another one. Give me a second. <Laugh>. Hang on, gimme a second. You'll have to delete this pause here so that it looks like I came up with it straight away. No,

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:35:37):
It just, it just, it just means that it means a lot to you.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:35:41):
Okay. Alright. I'll, I'll finish on another story. Here we go. Oh, good,

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:35:45):

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:35:46):
I don't have, I don't have any financial kickback from what I'm about to say. I wish I did, but I went and saw Air on the weekend, you know, the Nike Air movie? Oh

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:35:55):
Yeah. Right.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:35:55):
Yeah. It was fabulous. A absolutely fascinating and it really, it tells the story not of Michael Jordan as a player, but of his contribution to really accelerating and turning Nike from like a marginal brand into a dominant brand. It's fascinating. And so in there, Phil, the CEO turns to Sonny and he says to him, cause you know, they're taking a big risk here. They're, they're putting all of their budget behind this Michael Jordan, who is an unknown rookie player. Right. So they can't afford to do it as a business. They are, all their heads are on the chopping block if this doesn't go right. And so they make this call and you know, Phil, the CEO says, turns to Sonny and says, you don't get remembered for the rules that you keep to, you get remembered for the rules that you break. And so I think that's a really salient thing. Like people remember you for the rules that you break, but to bring that back into something practical and pragmatic, you've gotta understand what the rules are first. Yep. Otherwise, it's sheer chaos, you know, so understand what the rules are. Don't treat the whole digital space and conversion rates and digital marketing and all of that as just one giant fuzzy heap that scares you or frightens you away. Mm. Empower yourself, get some understanding, and then sure. Break the rules, but know why it is and do it with deliberate action rather than chaos. And, you

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:37:20):
Know, see that was a great, that was in, in thinking about what the quote was gonna be, you came up with something even better, so that

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:37:27):
Was, as long as you cut that silence, we're good to go. No,

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:37:31):
No, no. That's gonna stay. No, that's alright. No, it just means, it just sounds like it really meant a lot to you, which I know it did.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:37:38):
It did. It was a really impact.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:37:39):
No, that's great. That's, I'm, yeah, I've actually been thinking about that myself. I, I I, I, I saw the little snippet on that the other day and I that sounds like it

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:37:50):
Was a good film. Yeah.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:37:51):
A great story.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:37:52):
It was, it was a great story. Like totally go and see it.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:37:56):

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:37:57):
And then sign up to RAMMP

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:37:59):
<Laugh>. Yeah, exactly. So just, just tell, just just before we finish up, just tell people how best to get in contact with you RAMMP and whether they need to go online.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:38:12):
Probably the easiest thing to do is have a look at RAMMP.com. And get in contact through that. Like, if you send me an email, the easiest thing is booking a 15 minute call with me. We can have a chat and I can help you get started.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:38:29):
That sounds fantastic. And I, and, and thank you, thank you so much for for spending the time with me to run through all those really great conversation and thanks.

 Anna Harrison, RAMMP (01:38:39):
It's been fun.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:38:40):
Yeah. Yeah. Really, really enjoyable. And thank you once again everybody for listening to our podcast. And before we go, like Anna said before, to have any feedback as well as any suggestions for any topics or anything else for that matter that you'd like to know or actually just go to Ram and have a chat to Anna and thanks again for listening to the Gray Business Podcast and we'll see you again soon. Bye guys.

 Saul Edmonds, Roundhouse (01:39:11):
Thanks for tuning in to today's episode of Grow Your Business. Have a great day and we'll see you next time here at the Grow Your Business Podcast.